SAS vs. IFS

[fjtent]

I'm interested in finding out peoples' opinions on IFS & SAS (pros and cons). I've heard some pretty convincing arguments for both. Write down your opinion as to why you would choose SAS over IFS or vice versa and back up your opinion with some proof/facts.

[874runnersr5]

heres a can of worms!

http://bb.bc4x4.com/showthread.php?141720-Cleanly-Discuss-SAS-vs-IFS

[canadian bum]

You already know what I think haha.

[freeze]

Independent Front Suspension

Pro's

Great for road handling
Smooth handling over washboard roads (assuming pre-load and sag is set up properly)
increased differential clearance
Ability to change geometry easily
Less un-sprung weight
No leaky Birfields
Suspension travel can be changed with bolt-on kits


Con's

CV need to have a proper operating angle
CV boots a vulnerable to punctures
Older 7.5" front clamshell diffs are prone to breakage with regular gears
Older 7.5" diff CV's are prone to breakage with tires that are 35+"
Additional suspension travel is costly with Long Travel kits
Crawling over rocks takes a couple seconds for the suspension to settle where solid axle immediately forces the opposing wheel into the ground. Gravity needs to put the opposing wheel on the ground for IFS
Front end with stock width arms will dip into obstacles which can be unsettling for a while.
IFS doesn't unload like a coil or leaf solid axle
Rear flex should be similar to front travel numbers.
Newer IFS uses a rack and pinion set up which is vulnerable to contamination if boots leak

http://www.allprooffroad.com//images/rsgallery/display/DSC_3302.jpg.jpg

Solid Axle

Pro's

Incredible flex for the cost
Simple design with few moving parts unless there's a four link set up or buggy leaf set up.
Keeps the front level over obstacles (depending of flex, doesn't dip like IFS)
Internals can be strengthened for a decent cost
Older IFS Toyota's can be Solid Axle Swapped for a decent price with minimal welding/frame modifications.


Con's

Leaking Birfields (usually a sign of worn bearings/seals)
Road manners are not as good as IFS
Geometry needs either frame modifications or axle modifications
If Geometry is not correct death wobble or wandering is the result.
Added un-sprung weight
Rough ride over washboards (can be better with improved sping/shock set up)
Difficult to get proper front drive shaft angle on lifted applications unless front axle is moved forwards via drop hanger/link relocation, hi-pinion diff, or second transfercase is used.
Diff is sitting much lower than IFS
Lifting with coil springs eventually will require lengthened links/sway bars connectors.
SA Swap on newer IFS Toyota's are extremely expensive and require excellent fabrication skills
Can unload the suspension at odd angles and situations putting you on your side potentially.
Bending the axle housing (mini truck axle) or axle housing by birfield.

http://www.allprooffroad.com//images/rsgallery/display/brentsas2.jpg.jpg

It boils down to what you want to do with your Toyota. Do you want to crawl rocks and cross huge ruts. Do you want to drive long distances to do more expedition trails... Maybe both?

If you've got an older Toyota IFS... go Solid Axle as the benefits are much greater. Well... except today there's the cheap IFS Long Travel Kit!
http://www.ct4wd.com/news/index.php/component/content/article/27-4wd-product-tools/75-brazeland-longtravel

If you have a newer IFS Toyota... like the FJ Cruiser or 05+ Tacoma... there is a lot of work involved to Solid Axle it. Plus you'll be sitting quite high to clear the oil pan with the front diff. I have to say the 2" wider Long Travel on the Tacoma works really well for IFS and I have both a Solid Axle and IFS Long Travel.

I say have two Toyota 4WD's! :D

[RiceFarmer]

You guys can copy my avatar if you like. :D

[canadian bum]

I think that IFS is workable when your not to far away from parts for them. But in an expedition rig I don't think I could ever trust it. The complexity of the IFS makes for a lot more spare parts to carry and when your thinking about hauling gear weight is a factor. My IFS Taco will stay close to areas of population and not thousands of km's into the unknown just because ifs is not servicable or dependable for such endevours.

A solid axle can be maintained and easily repaired on the side of a trail. Gary does it all the time and can do it in a matter of a couple hours. My IFS had me stranded in Calgary for 3 days trying to get parts and I still didn't get all the seals. And there are tons of toyota dealers to source too. I could only imagine if I was in the middle of no where. It's why I have a spare wheel bearing assembly. But then what about CV shafts, steering rack, steering arms, a-arms, and ball joints. It's just too complicated to take way out into the sticks.

Yes they can be built to kick ass but the simplicity will never be there and simplicity is what you want when your in the middle of no where.

[Doc McCoy]

If there's a problem with your IFS you just unlock the hub of the axle that's giving you the problem.

Oh right ... only Antonio and I can do that. :P

[freeze]

Soon 05+ and FJ Cruisers too. Theres a company in Australia making it for the Hilux which is compatible with our current generation of Toyota! It'll have a completely different outer CV/hub.

Hopefully it sees the light of day!

[874runnersr5]

If there's a problem with your IFS you just unlock the hub of the axle that's giving you the problem.

Oh right ... only Antonio and I can do that. :P

booya! :)

[91Runner]

In my opinion, and for the research i've done. For my truck anyways, SAS will always be the better option.

AND

I know for sure then when i have the money and time, i will be doing mine!

[canadian bum]

Soon 05+ and FJ Cruisers too. Theres a company in Australia making it for the Hilux which is compatible with our current generation of Toyota! It'll have a completely different outer CV/hub.

Hopefully it sees the light of day!

Different wheel bearings?

[freeze]

I would assume as the whole outer cv to the hub will be different.

[Stuwy123]

Funny, I had this discuss in my head last Friday when I found a solid axle at Pick and Pull.

[freeze]

I'd say anything pre-05 Solid Axle is the way to go as the Long Travel options is either nill or full blown 4" wider. Except for the Blazeland set up. With post 05+ it's a toss up.

[91Runner]

I agree with Nathan. I think that when the time comes, i will go the blazeland route, maybe run that for 6 months. Then re-evaluate. If it exceeds all my demands, i will keep it. If not, another member on the forum will have access to an INCREDIBLY reasonably priced long travel kit.

[freeze]

haha! You'd have Antonio chomping at that kit if you did :D

[91Runner]

In 3 months when i'm all saved up for school next year / no longer working (school included) 12 hours a day 7 days a week. Then i will make the switch :)

[freeze]

Oh that'll be awesome!! Keep at'er... it'll seem like yesterday when you have it on your truck you wrote in this thread!

[874runnersr5]

In 3 months when i'm all saved up for school next year / no longer working (school included) 12 hours a day 7 days a week. Then i will make the switch :)

gimme me a headsup, we can do a group buy :)

[91Runner]

gimme me a headsup, we can do a group buy :)

Deal!

[874runnersr5]

Deal!

sweet, when do you think youll want to put a order thru? mid summer?

[91Runner]

By august 10 i need 5k saved for school. Likely 2 to 3 weeks after that. It all depends though because i will be doing a rear leaf swap at the same time

[Winch]

If there's a problem with your IFS you just unlock the hub of the axle that's giving you the problem.


Unlocking the hub (whether with IFS or SFA) will do nothing if the issue is that of a bad wheel bearing though.

[S/C '03 taco]

for doc McCoy it would not be an issue as he has enough IFS spindles left from his build to carry full spare spindles for each side, bearings and all... IFS is not that complicated if you know what your doing and actually think things through and if it's built correct then you should only have driver errors with it from being to rammy and the bearing issue is not as big of an issue with the first gens as it is for the second gen taco's.... but then again it is totaly to each their own on this topic.... but i will say, even in the pro4 class baja truck i don;t see any solid axles except in the rear.... but on the other side you don;t often see rock crawlers with IFS... myself, i say i would rather have a long travel IFS set up that performs at higher speeds and can still crawl with the solid axle guys over a rough street riding trail machine....

oh and Doc.... don't think you and antonio will be the only ones who can do that in an IFS set-up for too long....hehehehe :)

[canadian bum]

for doc McCoy it would not be an issue as he has enough IFS spindles left from his build to carry full spare spindles for each side, bearings and all... IFS is not that complicated if you know what your doing and actually think things through and if it's built correct then you should only have driver errors with it from being to rammy and the bearing issue is not as big of an issue with the first gens as it is for the second gen taco's.... but then again it is totaly to each their own on this topic.... but i will say, even in the pro4 class baja truck i don;t see any solid axles except in the rear.... but on the other side you don;t often see rock crawlers with IFS... myself, i say i would rather have a long travel IFS set up that performs at higher speeds and can still crawl with the solid axle guys over a rough street riding trail machine....

oh and Doc.... don't think you and antonio will be the only ones who can do that in an IFS set-up for too long....hehehehe :)

I think there is a bit more to it than that. True IFS will rock in high speed areas such as Baja but last time I checked that was a few thousand km's away. Also as soon as you add a locker and some big tires 35+ parts explode. And Gary's truck rides just as nice as any IFS rigs not long travel but I don't think even long travel can compete with Gary's truck as far as flex goes.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/johnschultz/Random/IMG_0156.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/johnschultz/Random/post-3787-1224438097_thumb.jpg

There is no true cost effective way to make IFS travel like this and still remain simple enough to go down to your local NAPA store and pick up replacement parts. Super high angle CV's aren't easy to come by. IFS can perform but not like this and still be an effective highway machine and not a few hundred thousand dollar trophy truck. Nothing against guys who have the coin to do that.

[Krazie Sj]

oh and Doc.... don't think you and antonio will be the only ones who can do that in an IFS set-up for too long....hehehehe :)

True that and thank god cause now I'll get the suspension I want for CHEAP! WOO!

[91Runner]

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/johnschultz/Random/IMG_0156.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/johnschultz/Random/post-3787-1224438097_thumb.jpg

FLEX!! Considering that i get about 12 inches TOTAL flex. SAS wins

[hazardhat]

^^ That is some pretty impressive flex. If I were into crawling i'd most likely look to SAS eventually but since I do more expedition style trips, I really appreciate my IFS. Might do a long travel IFS kit down the road.

[Winch]

^^ That is some pretty impressive flex. If I were into crawling i'd most likely look to SAS eventually but since I do more expedition style trips, I really appreciate my IFS. Might do a long travel IFS kit down the road.


Yep, like John said, SAS is definitely your best bang for the buck for both highway and offroad use - even expedition. All SFA trucks drive just fine on the highway, which is why most auto makers still produce them today. Just think of all the one dually's and the Toyota's still produced today with SFA in overseas markets. If they were that bad, nobody would buy a new SFA truck.

IFS might be slightly more comfortable on the highway according to the auto makers, but I have not personally experienced the difference. I have both an IFS and an SAS truck, I can't tell the difference on the highway, even at 140 km/h.

IFS can be built to flex as well or better than SAS, and most seem to think that they drive better on the highway, but unlike SFA, you will always have some extreme angles on the shafts and joints, and I don't think they are as dependable, esp. not for the money you spend. There's pro's and con's, just like with everything else. Personally, I would SAS everything - even Corolla's.

[Tarzan]

I agree that for Highway ride the two suspension types would feel similar. The real difference (at least what I hear on the radio) is on rough gravel roads where I am blasting along rally style and all the sfa vehicles are getting pummelled. SFA is truly king of offroading but only if it's done right like Garys. You can build an SFA system and due to various factors have poor flex and steering

[Tarzan]

Now here is somone who can out flex Gary and dang near anything I've ever seen.

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[91Runner]

Now here is somone who can out flex Gary and dang near anything I've ever seen.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/w_F7QrR4Ur8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/w_F7QrR4Ur8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

CHEATING!! and i'd bet his ride would be HORRIBLE!

[canadian bum]

Also don't think that would be able to do anything close to highway speeds. Sure it can out flex gary's but there is no way it could ever live life off of a trailer.

[hazardhat]

Hahaha, cheating is right! That video always gets me.

[Winch]

Yeah, IFS is completely overated. People who think that IFS handles better on the highway or gravel roads are either not comparing apples to apples, or got brainwashed by all this IFS propaganda. What makes the difference in handling has very little to do with the type of axle, but everything to do with suspension. Obviously an IFS truck with torsion bars, coils or coilovers will handle better than a SFA on leaf springs, but an SFA truck with desert racing coilovers will outperform any IFS truck with a suspension any less than racing coilovers. If you have an IFS with desert racing coilovers (like a trophy truck) vs. an SFA with desert racing coilovers (comparing apples to apples), there would be no difference in handling on the highway or gravel roads. The trophy truck will only start to outperform the SFA truck under some very severe racing conditions like jumping.

When was the last time you drove a Lexus LX 450? It has an SFA with coils and shocks and handles flawlessly on the highway and gravel roads. Do you think people would buy a Lexus if it handled like crap? When was the last time you took a newer SFA truck for a spin? There are many, many vehicles (including Toyotas) that roll off the assembly line today with SFA's and they handle as well, if not better, than many (perhaps most) IFS trucks from a year or so ago.

While an IFS flexes as well (or better) than an SFA, I don't think the technology is there yet to built an IFS truck to be as strong and relible as an SFA, and there are many other advantages of SFA: cost of a SAS, ease of maintanence and repairs, cost of maintanence and repairs, off road capabilities, approach angle, etc.

I'm not sure about the newer Tacos and FJ's, and in the older trucks it's not applicable, but I do know that the rack and pinnion steering of the first gen Tacos and similar 4Runners cannot withstand off roading. So, in this and many other cases, the choice between a SAS or an expensive long travel IFS setup, really boils down to cost. It would not be possible to built, repair and maintain any IFS setup today for a cost even close to that of a SAS setup. Rack and pinnions, CV's, diffs are pretty expensive to replace every so often.

So, I just wanted to get my opion accross for consideration by those who may not have decided yet which way they want to go between IFS or SAS. Please do lots of research. There are pro's and con's. Make sure to choose what's right for you, taking into account the expense of an IFS setup to perform as well as that of a similar SAS setup. Also, in a newer truck a SAS will most likely depreciate the vallue of a truck considerably and are for the most part irreversible. Thanks. :)

[Doc McCoy]

There are a couple downsides to a SAS ... you have to have everything ready immediately. One giant leap ... no small steps and no going back. True long travel IFS is pretty much the same though. In theory you can undo most long travel setups. As well, you are greatly increasing your unsprung weight. If you drive a lexus ... who cares about how much gas costs in a DD ;). That pretty much sums up the disadvantages. And considering you've got a novels worth of advantages ...

I don't think anyone really thinks that, dollar for dollar, an IFS can compete with a SFA (both running coils), so I don't really understand your overrated comment. I think the only real place an IFS would come out noticeably ahead (performance wise) of a SFA would be on an offset washboard road and I don't think that happens very often.

[Winch]

There are a couple downsides to a SAS ... you have to have everything ready immediately. One giant leap ... no small steps and no going back. True long travel IFS is pretty much the same though. In theory you can undo most long travel setups. As well, you are greatly increasing your unsprung weight. If you drive a lexus ... who cares about how much gas costs in a DD . That pretty much sums up the disadvantages. And considering you've got a novels worth of advantages ...

Yes I agree :) , but some of those disadvantages that you mention can still be advantages too. For example, as you mention, a SAS is a giant leap. So yes, a disadvantage that you have to have it all figured out before you start, but at least the cost is once off. If you keep doing small steps in modifying an IFS, it becomes even more expensive, right?

And yes, unsprung weight increases, but it's also an advantage to have all that weight so low down, though.


I don't think anyone really thinks that, dollar for dollar, an IFS can compete with a SFA (both running coils), so I don't really understand your overrated comment.
Well maybe not on this forum, but I've read a lot on other forums and magazines lately about how far superior IFS is over SFA, and I can't help but think it's all propaganda to get people to buy expensive IFS upgrades. SAS is definately not for everyone or for every vehichle. I think that the main point that I would like to get accross is that some people seem to think that the main reason why someone should keep IFS is because it handles so much better on the highway or gravel roads, and that is simply not true. It depends on suspension and other factors, and the main deciding factor should never be because IFS supposedly handles better, but rather on factors such as cost, the vallue of the vehichle, what it will be used for, someones fabricating skills, etc.

Sorry, did not mean to hijack the thread, but there was just a couple comments that prompted me to respond:

yeah too much money for ifs suspension for my truck... rather go sas at that point

But that's not longer stock toyota IFS = improvement.
SAS is the cheaper option.

[freeze]

If you keep doing small steps in modifying an IFS, it becomes even more expensive, right?

If you sell all your old IFS stuff as you upgrade it reduces the cost. Especially when people are climbing the same tree there's a market for it.



the main deciding factor should never be because IFS supposedly handles better, but rather on factors such as cost, the vallue of the vehichle, what it will be used for, someones fabricating skills, etc.

I think the IFS side of things on newer Toyota's is more relevant as the cost to SAS is going through the roof as electronics and drivetrain/exhaust layout provide challenges. Older Toyota's without a doubt SAS is cheaper but then again it can also get very expensive if you want it to ride like a LC80 or LX450 as geometry, coils, and shock valving come into play.

Still on highways they feel weird when the axle flexes going over whoops and uneven pavement.

From what I've experienced... nothing has come close to the LT kit on the Tacoma for rutted, choppy, pot holed, washboard gravel roads at high speed. The rear kicks and fights but that front end is incredible. Nothing comes close to a SA'ed Toyota in large obstacles. So it boils down to how much time realistically will you spend in what terrain.

If I lived in South Lake Tahoe I'd put A/C in my 81 and rock it with the RTT. I live in Alberta so the Tacoma with LT is perfect. Because in the deep snow.... IFS has the advantage in a big way! If I lived in Moab... it would be a toss up. But then who says you can't have both right?!

[the_kernel114]

my biggest issue with ifs is reliability and simplicity, especially on the newer tacos. a sfa in my opinion is way more reliable and a heck of a lot easier to work on especially on the trail.


If you sell all your old IFS stuff as you upgrade it reduces the cost. Especially when people are climbing the same tree there's a market for it.

same applies for going sfa though.

[freeze]

my biggest issue with ifs is reliability and simplicity, especially on the newer tacos. a sfa in my opinion is way more reliable and a heck of a lot easier to work on especially on the trail.

I dunno if you had spare IFS complete hubs with you. You don't have to deal with cone washers, felts, wipers, and a bunch of bolts for just one side. Lot less grease to deal with as well. Trunion bearings, steering knuckle bolts...Diff fluid mixing with the axle grease...

With the IFS you can have a spare inner and outer and axle shaft packed smaller than a birf stub and axle. Front end tear down on the current LT is very quick.

I'd say the LT Tacoma/FJ/4Runner set up is very simple, very few bolts and parts. If you had spares, it would be very quick to replace parts on the trail with very little mess. Think doing a front SA tear down to replace a broken axle shaft in the poring rain with no trees around. I would take my LT set up over my 81 any day!

The weak points are CV boots and steering boots and having to align the dang thing every time I change the pre-load.

[Spooky08]

True that the sfa is easier to work on, but so is an Ifs if you k ow what you are doing, anything could built strong but it comes back to money, there's guys put there who have more money into just their axles then they have in the whole truck, it just depends on what you are building your truck to do. There are certain instances where having sfa is benificial and there are times when having ifs is benificial. Lexus no long makes sfa trucks anymore at least in North America.

[Winch]

Quoted from Antonio's thread titled "Removing tbars and getting coilovers". Maybe we can copy the whole IFS vs. SAS discussion to this thread instead.


From what I've experienced... nothing has come close to the LT kit on the Tacoma for rutted, choppy, pot holed, washboard gravel roads at high speed.

Well, you see Nathan, this is my whole argument. :) From what you've experienced, can you list a few examples of newer vehichles with SFA's that are properly setup with racing style coilovers (like King, Fox or Sway away) that you have driven lately on rutted, choppy, pot holed, washboard gravel roads at high speed?

[Doc McCoy]

Gonna try and do that now ...

Edit - Success!

[Muttle]

nothing else need be said.
http://cp.focoservers.com/~thorer/Bilder/portal/BT0_5053.JPG

[freeze]

Well, you see Nathan, this is my whole argument. :)

Ahhh yes.... very true Gary... gotcha! ;)

[Spooky08]

i have a question for those contesting that ifs isn't better then sfa, why is it that most manufactures are turning away from sfa even on their heavy duty vehicles if it is that much more superior. ifs for one is more complicated, has more parts/moving parts, harder to setup properly and weak oh and not to mention more expensive to produce and replace when manufactures are out there to make money, if anyone has noticed prices of vehicles has come down over the last few years. there has to be a reason why. i mean just look at the ford raptor, with all its fancy stuff heck even the manufacture advertises it as baja ready wouldn't it have been cheaper to mount a sfa under it ?

i know this is point is slightly off topic, but every manufacture that makes a performance road going vehicle uses independent front and rear suspension, even manufactures that produced a solid rear axle rwd sports car has turned away from that technology ...

[Winch]

i have a question for those contesting that ifs isn't better then sfa, why is it that most manufactures are turning away from sfa even on their heavy duty vehicles if it is that much more superior. ifs for one is more complicated, has more parts/moving parts, harder to setup properly and weak oh and not to mention more expensive to produce and replace when manufactures are out there to make money, if anyone has noticed prices of vehicles has come down over the last few years. there has to be a reason why. i mean just look at the ford raptor, with all its fancy stuff heck even the manufacture advertises it as baja ready wouldn't it have been cheaper to mount a sfa under it ?

i know this is point is slightly off topic, but every manufacture that makes a performance road going vehicle uses independent front and rear suspension, even manufactures that produced a solid rear axle rwd sports car has turned away from that technology ...

Yes, I don't get it either ...... Maybe it's because they are not willing/ able to produce SFA's with coilovers (CO's) in a 3 or 4 link configuration (because all other suspension configurations would simply be too far inferior to IFS with CO's.) Anyone know if any auto maker has an SFA with factory CO's? Cause if they do, then we can compare apples with apples.

[Spooky08]

well that's a bit untrue to about the 4 and 3 link, 4 runners and fj have a rear 4 link set up and technically most modern vehicles come with a coilover shock configuration. the stock suspension is setup up with the most optimum damping and compression ratios as well as spring rates. i believe the only reason for manufactures do not produce a vehicle with racing or high quality shocks is because of longevity they just don't last as long as stock suspension. we could "test drive a stock jeep rubicon" hehe and "test drive a stock fj trail teams" and do a comparison ! they are very similar and yet very different axle wise !!!

[canadian bum]

What heavy duty trucks are you talking about? Dodge and Ford still use solid front axles. Chevy is the only odd ball and they don't stand up that well when used for something other than cruising the highway. Just speaking from service truck perspective. IFS may cost more in the design initial build however parts return is threw the roof. Look at me how many wheel bearings? Most people are going to get Toyota to do ball joints so every time you need ball joints 400 a piece cause you have to replace the whole control arm.

And since I will probably never get any money for my POS Taco I am actively looking for a HP Dana 44 out of a late 70's F-250 for an SAS. F this IFS crap. I'm going to do this on a budget and have something reliable then. Come on parts. Going to do it up leaf spring style though.

[freeze]

I vote for an 80 series front axle! :D

Maybe just sell the Tacoma and get a mini truck and SAS it with leafs. Last Tacoma on leafs up front looked pretty redonk. The front drop hanger was almost 6" because of the front axle had to hang so low to clear the oil pan.

[canadian bum]

If you want to make the 80 series axle a drivers drop sure. I'm doing this on the cheap. Would love to sell it but there is no way I would get 20G for it.

[freeze]

http://blogs.cars.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/11/04/taco80struck2560.jpg

[canadian bum]

I don't feel like doing a Tcase swap and my 80 series axle is for the 40 series also a dana 44 can be had for like $250

[Doc McCoy]

Do what ya can to fall in love with the truck all over again! $250 sounds like a good start to a SAS. You'll be one of the first guys in Alberta with one. You and Gherra will make everyone jealous.

Then, later and just cause you actually love your cruisers, get a front driver drop 80 diamond axle housing and a rear centred 80 diamond axle housing. Then you'll be making a love/hate mobile. ;)

[canadian bum]

Haha I am pretty much just SASing this to make it a better highway driver. I'm not going to drop a locker in the front. Just getting this thing ready so it can actually drive and not cost me a fortune in repairs so I can get the Cruisers done. The wheel bearings are just too much.

Lots of guys say its not the load but they don't know my driving style at all. It's not mud killing them it because I avoid that. Might be that I put the truck into high speed turns and know that on pavement the KM2's understeer a lot easier than the AT's. haha ;)

[Winch]

well that's a bit untrue to about the 4 and 3 link, 4 runners and fj have a rear 4 link set up and technically most modern vehicles come with a coilover shock configuration.
Yes, they come with CO's but not with SFA's


i believe the only reason for manufactures do not produce a vehicle with racing or high quality shocks is because of longevity they just don't last as long as stock suspension.
You could be right, but I seriously doubt this.


we could "test drive a stock jeep rubicon" hehe and "test drive a stock fj trail teams" and do a comparison ! they are very similar and yet very different axle wise !!!
Not really because the FJ has CO's and the rubicon does not (unless they changed that in the last year or so. I have little doubt that the FJ's CO suspension will outperform the rubicon's coil spring and shock suspension, so we're still not comparing apples to apples.

In my opinion, a truck with CO's will outperform a truck with coil springs and with torsion bars and leaf springs would likely be last, and once again it's got more to do with the suspension than with the type of axle under normal driving conditions of say up to 120 km/h on gravel or highway.

[canadian bum]

I vote for an 80 series front axle! :D

Maybe just sell the Tacoma and get a mini truck and SAS it with leafs. Last Tacoma on leafs up front looked pretty redonk. The front drop hanger was almost 6" because of the front axle had to hang so low to clear the oil pan.

I know the one your talking about and it was for bling I am thinking. The oil pan unlike the first gen tacos is not an issue as it is already at the rear. It will work and I don't need to be sky high to do it. Insert Fab skills haha. My plan once all the parts are together is two weekends to get it done. I would be two wheel drive till i get a driveshaft made but it will be able to drive. Once I get the Plasma and torch out it won't be a long process.

[City_Rider]

I know the one your talking about and it was for bling I am thinking. The oil pan unlike the first gen tacos is not an issue as it is already at the rear. It will work and I don't need to be sky high to do it. Insert Fab skills haha. My plan once all the parts are together is two weekends to get it done. I would be two wheel drive till i get a driveshaft made but it will be able to drive. Once I get the Plasma and torch out it won't be a long process.

For some reason I understand the pan was an issue... apparently the X-runner pan is lower profile?

Good luck!

I am super interested to see another SAS'd Taco...


/And of course the cruisers!

[canadian bum]

I don't know what you guys are swapping in or axles maybe rockwells? To me from these pictures your doing something seriously wrong if you are hitting the pan.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/johnschultz/Taco%20SAS/IMG_7598.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/johnschultz/Taco%20SAS/IMG_7597.jpg

Not trying to be a dick I have just actually looked at the truck in the driveway have a plan laid out in my mind and still people on here telling me I have to be stupid high to clear the pan. I donno I'll just do it and drive it.

[the_kernel114]

you don't have to be very high to clear the pan on the 05+ tacos, it is basically a non issue. the only thing you should do is push the axle forward to clear the body mount a little easier.

[canadian bum]

you don't have to be very high to clear the pan on the 05+ tacos, it is basically a non issue. the only thing you should do is push the axle forward to clear the body mount a little easier.

Yeah and that is pretty much an obvious thing. I couldn't figure out what everyone was talking about pan interferance for. It's the first gens that have that problem because the sump is at the front of the engine. Paul had to get a pan off of a T100 to relocate the sump to the rear. Hopefully we SAS his 99 this winter he has most of his parts together and just needs to get building a garage.

[Stuwy123]

Took a quick trip to Pick and Pull to collect a grocery list of little bits. I came across not one but TWO 84 land cruisers in there.
Noticing the solid axle, the wheels in my head turning. They are SUA and look almost identical to the mini truck axles.
I'm sure someone's stuffed a SUA LC axle under their truck before. Anyone have a linky or something. It doesn't appear to be as common of a candidate for a IFS -> SAS.

[canadian bum]

60 series or 40?
5 Speed tranny?

[Stuwy123]

60 series. Not a clue about the tranny, both were gone, that's all I know.

[canadian bum]

Whats the width of your trucks rear axle? A land cruiser would work good it has a bigger ring gear too so there is lots of strength there.

60 series axle width is 57.87 inches.

[Stuwy123]

My rear axle is 58.5" wide WMS-WMS.
Front is 59".
It has a bigger ring gear? Do the mini truck diffs fit into the LC axle housings?
They look almost identical.
I was hoping to be able to put my factory 4.88's into it.

[canadian bum]

Haha no not even close to being able to swap thirds. The thirds are much smaller on a mini truck. The only one you could swap thirds with is an 80 series front axle. But the 80 series has a high pinion third. You would have to get gears for the axle.

[Stuwy123]

Right.
I'll just have to source out an 80 series axle, they sound like they'd be a lot better. Floating rear, rear disks, e-locker, high pinion... Can't go wrong.

[canadian bum]

Right.
I'll just have to source out an 80 series axle, they sound like they'd be a lot better. Floating rear, rear disks, e-locker, high pinion... Can't go wrong.

They are wider i think in the 63 inch range and aren't all that common to find for cheap. Also you can't use your gears on the high pinion third anyways.

[Winch]

They are wider i think in the 63 inch range and aren't all that common to find for cheap. Also you can't use your gears on the high pinion third anyways.

Yep, they're 63" wide WMS to WMS, which is a nice width. It also amazing how many are out there nowadays. I've seen some great deals on ebay, a post on I8mud in the wanted section will fetch many replies, but to me this is the best source of all:
http://www.car-part.com/

[camel]

i did the all pro's long travel kit with the walker evans. pretty decent ride quality and pretty decent travel. definetly does not articulate like sas but like i said the ride is still about as soft as stock. the rear of the truck is a little stiffer but with some tinkering around im sure that can be fixed. its not cheap... but it sure looks bad ass.
1 side point, if you do the longtravel kit, you pretty much have to do a steel bumper for the weight, i made the mistake of doing the suspension before the bumper and the ride was brutally stiff.

[Bloo]

Well, I made my decision last month. I guess we'll find out if it was the right one pretty soon...

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0931.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0957.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0958.jpg

[Reeeno403]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh :D

[the_kernel114]

Well, I made my decision last month. I guess we'll find out if it was the right one pretty soon...

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0931.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0957.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0958.jpg

is that a custom radius arm or did you buy a off the shelf jeep kit? looks bad ass thats for sure.

how do you like the tg rock assault housing?

[Bloo]

Custom. Drives very nice so far for the short around-town trips I've had it on - drives smoothly with minimal correction although turning does require a little more overall input which is expected. Still in the shop waiting for the ALCAN springs and TG Transfercase Cross-member. Should be able to flex it out in the next 2 weeks. The TG axle housing is top-notch. I'll submit a more detailed build thread when it's done.

[Rapier46]

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3036/dscf1574xu.jpg

With solid axle you can pose for sweet pix like this

[91Runner]

Damn thats cool... (Bloo)

Jamie's just a show off ;)

[Bloo]

Yeah, that was a pretty cool picture of a solid REAR axle, though...:rolleyes:

[Rapier46]

With IFS I would have been three-wheelin! :D I prefer solid axle for the stuff I do, mud, snow,rocks,dirt. Slow speed crawlin. No jumps really. it seems best for what i use it for. lots of clearance, mud can slide over it instead of being forced under IFS. way more options for lifting too. and you can have it LOW, with lots-o-flex. im going to lower my truck in time. bigger tires>lower> awesomeeeee


bloo that truck looks great with the 4 link. bet its super flexy.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8725/56910826.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2111/dscf1339b.jpg

i love solid axle. seriously the best mod ive ever done

[Bloo]

Now THAT'S a solid FRONT axle! :-D

I hope you're right (I know you are) and I'll post the whole build when we finish it up in the next couple weeks. BTW it's actually adjustable radius arms with panhard. I've seen Winch's truck on here and in the video's and it got me to thinking why not radius arm's instead of the usual leaf's or 3-link? Works' pretty good for the 80 series Land Cruiser, why not this old Tacoma...

[Stuwy123]

Your e-brake no worky too well? I see a tell-tale orange wheel chock.
You're way classier than me, I was using a chunk of 4x4 post or my steel toe boots for a while. Haha.

[Rapier46]

It didn't at that time. I used a motocross boot usually, but I rolled over it sometimes. So the wheel chalk it was.

[freeze]

I've seen Winch's truck on here and in the video's and it got me to thinking why not radius arm's instead of the usual leaf's or 3-link? Works' pretty good for the 80 series Land Cruiser, why not this old Tacoma...

Yeah I love your front axle links... very simple. Is there a pan hard hiding somewhere? I couldn't see one in the photo's.

Can't wait to see it in action!

[Bloo]

Yup, pan hard bar is tucked up there nice and high. Even have a Currie Anti-rock Sway bar snuggly tucked in there, too. Can't wait for those new ALCANs to come in this week!

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0948.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0955.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG0940-1.jpg

[Sprockett]

Did you do this work yourself or a shop?

[Bloo]

Iron Pig Off Road, Fredericksburg, VA

[jeremyN]

I had a IFS 4runner that I used for 2 years in IFS form. I would go through 5-8 Idler arms a summer and need multiple alignments. I did a SAS on it and did not need to get an alignment in 3 years of use although I would get it checked every spring. I no longer was replacing idler arms or bushings every weekend and was able to enjoy it. It was a lot of work but well worth it in the end for the way it drove down the logging roads and hwy was fantastic!

I have since sold it and now have a 80 series with a OEM SFA. Again great on the hwy and around town. Have not had it off road yet but I'm sure it will be very capable. Lifts are cheap as well and very user tunable for load and use.

I prefer the simplicity of the SFA and its reliability. No hub or unit bearing issues to stop the trip. Those two things completely turned me off the latest tacos that I was looking at getting (2011-2012).

IFS is great for Baja style trails or driving fast on logging roads witch is now illegal in BC (speed limits).

With the LX450 I can still drive for hours on end on the hwy and not be beat tired. I know if I have a problem I can fix it my self with a limited took kit. I carry spare wheel bearing's, Birf and trunions (all fit in a small ammo can). If I have a problem I know I can fix it and be back on the road in a couple of hours. The chances of needing to do anything like that thought are slim at best. I am rebuilding the axle now with all new seals, bearings and TRE's and should have no problem going another 100k on them as long as there maintained.

[Rapier46]

That basically sums up Toyota solid axles prrfectly. That's exactly what I would say too.

[Winch]

IFS is great for Baja style trails or driving fast on logging roads witch is now illegal in BC (speed limits).

Totally agree with everything, but would like to add that if you have superior suspension (like Baja style coilovers), even an SFA does great on Baja style trails and logging roads. :D

[Krazie Sj]

Just an FYI, Ford F350 with the FX4 package likes to bottom out like crazy on washboards.

That is all. :p (Ask me how I know)

[jeremyN]

Totally agree with everything, but would like to add that if you have superior suspension (like Baja style coilovers), even an SFA does great on Baja style trails and logging roads. :D

Yes I agree, if you build the SAS with Baja style roads and driving in mind they do preform great. Thing is the cost to make a SAS preform great on baja style roads would easily pay for a hi tech Long travel IFS set up in most cases and require far less fab work, usually it bolts in.